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Sales Leadership Style and Coaching to Build an Elite Team with Dr. Jim Kanichirayil

Transcript
Wesleyne Greer:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of

Wesleyne Greer:

the transform sales Podcast. Today I am in great company, I

Wesleyne Greer:

have Dr. Jim can eat Reaugh. How are you, Dr. Jim?

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm fantastic. He nailed my pronunciation of

Jim Kanichirayil:

the last name. So very few people get that right. So I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

happy to be here. And we're starting off the show on a

Jim Kanichirayil:

really strong footing there.

Wesleyne Greer:

Yay, it is because my name is so hard to

Wesleyne Greer:

say. And so when somebody asks me, how do you pronounce it, I

Wesleyne Greer:

really try to lean into it. So I try to save people's names right

Wesleyne Greer:

when I can. So let me tell you guys a little bit more about Dr.

Wesleyne Greer:

Jim. He's a researcher, writer, and podcaster. If you have not

Wesleyne Greer:

listened to his podcast yet, you should definitely do it. But he

Wesleyne Greer:

helps leaders, people and organizations drive

Wesleyne Greer:

transformations by helping them build elite diverse teams, he

Wesleyne Greer:

also makes sure that talent and your talent strategy doesn't get

Wesleyne Greer:

left behind. I love that talent in your talent strategy not

Wesleyne Greer:

getting left behind. That's awesome. So tell us how did Dr.

Wesleyne Greer:

Jim start his career to become this amazing person who is so

Wesleyne Greer:

focused on diversity in teams in sales in everything, tell us

Wesleyne Greer:

about that journey.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I don't know about how amazing all that is.

Jim Kanichirayil:

It's kind of like the ultimate nerd story. So I mean, I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

in broad strokes, if we're talking about how I got to where

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm at right now and where I'm heading, I'm a generation zero

Jim Kanichirayil:

immigrant. And I've referenced this in sort of the earliest

Jim Kanichirayil:

episodes of my podcast that I host with myself and Lawrence

Jim Kanichirayil:

Brown is that we were so poor, I'm originally from India, we

Jim Kanichirayil:

were so poor, that the trigger that flipped us coming to the US

Jim Kanichirayil:

was me basically melting down in the middle of a grocery store,

Jim Kanichirayil:

because we couldn't afford an apple. So I had seen an apple

Jim Kanichirayil:

for the first time wanted it, couldn't afford it, and my mom,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you know, decided at that point, I gotta get a better life for my

Jim Kanichirayil:

kids. And that started the process of coming to the US. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

how that ties into kind of where I'm at, I've always had this

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of grinder hungry personality or aspect about

Jim Kanichirayil:

myself, because of where I came from. And you know, in terms of

Jim Kanichirayil:

how I got to where I'm at right now, I've always been a super

Jim Kanichirayil:

nerd, like, there are so many different things that interests

Jim Kanichirayil:

me. And I'd like to go deep in those areas. But in general, the

Jim Kanichirayil:

world is just interesting to me. So I like to have at least a

Jim Kanichirayil:

baseline level of knowledge across any number of things. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

one of the things that I noticed as I was early in my career and

Jim Kanichirayil:

then progressing through is that organizations and companies are

Jim Kanichirayil:

always looking at, we got to get more people, we got to keep the

Jim Kanichirayil:

funnel going in terms of pipeline, but the area that

Jim Kanichirayil:

always gets forgotten is internally, you're always

Jim Kanichirayil:

obsessed about bringing people in, but what are you doing to

Jim Kanichirayil:

keep the people that you have and oftentimes, the culture

Jim Kanichirayil:

within organizations isn't set up in a way where you can have

Jim Kanichirayil:

those sorts of conversations and talk about what's your vision

Jim Kanichirayil:

for yourself, Where do you want to go that sort of stuff. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

that actually informed a lot of my my research in areas of

Jim Kanichirayil:

interest. And that really is where I became passionate about

Jim Kanichirayil:

retention, turnover, development, di issues, all of

Jim Kanichirayil:

these sorts of things. It took time, as I got further and

Jim Kanichirayil:

further involved. And that's kind of how I got here. I've

Jim Kanichirayil:

been fortunate in that I've always been able to tie these

Jim Kanichirayil:

nerd areas into what I do. I mean, I have that long as title

Jim Kanichirayil:

that you just read. But you know, essentially, I'm in sales.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So I've worked very deliberately, in integrating my

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent, strategy passions into the roles that I've had, I've

Jim Kanichirayil:

had talent, adjacent roles and technology, talent, adjacent

Jim Kanichirayil:

roles and staffing. You know, I'm in a SAS technology

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization right now that is focused on driving diversity in

Jim Kanichirayil:

the workplace. So it's kind of like a process that led to kind

Jim Kanichirayil:

of where I'm at, and who knows where it's going to go, because

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm going to keep grinding in these areas. And who knows where

Jim Kanichirayil:

that will take me in the long run. So hopefully, that helps

Jim Kanichirayil:

give you a little bit of a little bit of background

Wesleyne Greer:

that gave me a whole lot. So you talked about

Wesleyne Greer:

being a generation zero immigrant help enlighten us on

Wesleyne Greer:

what it means to be a generation zero immigrant and what those

Wesleyne Greer:

early years were like for you acclimating into the US,

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think what's interesting about fitting in, in

Jim Kanichirayil:

that immigrant journey, is that I had the benefit when I was in

Jim Kanichirayil:

India, that English is the national language along with

Jim Kanichirayil:

Hindi and a couple of other things that is going to be based

Jim Kanichirayil:

on what region you came up in. So I already knew English and I

Jim Kanichirayil:

was speaking English fluently when I came over here, but you

Jim Kanichirayil:

know, the adjustment period was pretty interesting. I had an

Jim Kanichirayil:

advantage where I could communicate with an English

Jim Kanichirayil:

accent. So like a British speakers accent at the time, so

Jim Kanichirayil:

I came over when I was seven, but I'd never seen like one of

Jim Kanichirayil:

the interesting stories about my first experiences here. When we

Jim Kanichirayil:

came over one of the stops that we had, before we switch to a

Jim Kanichirayil:

different plane to come to Chicago was in New York, and it

Jim Kanichirayil:

was in LaGuardia. And at the time, they didn't have the

Jim Kanichirayil:

terminal, they had those little trucks with stairs. And here I

Jim Kanichirayil:

am, as a seven year old kid, never seen snow before we came

Jim Kanichirayil:

over in December. So I'm thinking that when these stair

Jim Kanichirayil:

things came up to the door, I was racing to the front to be

Jim Kanichirayil:

the first off, and I look. And the first thing that I see is a

Jim Kanichirayil:

layer of white stuff that's this high. And I'm thinking America

Jim Kanichirayil:

is freaking great, because there's sugar everywhere. So I

Jim Kanichirayil:

grabbed a handful of it. Before my dad could, like grabbed my

Jim Kanichirayil:

hand and stuck it in my mouth. And I was disappointed in terms

Jim Kanichirayil:

of, well, this isn't sugar, it's cold. But that was one of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

first memories in coming over to the states, the adjustment

Jim Kanichirayil:

period as an immigrant was made easier because of my ability to

Jim Kanichirayil:

communicate. But there are a lot of cultural differences and

Jim Kanichirayil:

things like that. And this was, you know, in an era where

Jim Kanichirayil:

immigrants were probably even more, I don't want to say

Jim Kanichirayil:

frowned upon, but there was more animosity to an immigrant

Jim Kanichirayil:

community at that time there there is now but I think beyond

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, you know, where I lived, it was the Chicago suburbs. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

we lived in Oak Park, and then we lived in Evanston. So all of

Jim Kanichirayil:

these areas were fairly cosmopolitan. So it was an

Jim Kanichirayil:

easier transition, I think it would have been a lot more

Jim Kanichirayil:

difficult. If I was in middle of nowhere, I don't know, Idaho, or

Jim Kanichirayil:

something, no offense to anybody that lives in Idaho, but I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

that would have been a little bit tougher to make that

Jim Kanichirayil:

transition. So as

Wesleyne Greer:

a child, as a person new to this country, I

Wesleyne Greer:

really love what you said you'd like to sugar, and I can

Wesleyne Greer:

absolutely see how as a child never seen snow, how you would

Wesleyne Greer:

think about that. One thing that I know is so true is that the

Wesleyne Greer:

experiences that we have in our childhood, they impact the way

Wesleyne Greer:

that we lead. So which of those early experiences do you see

Wesleyne Greer:

helping you become and have developed your leadership style,

Jim Kanichirayil:

so I can't really point to anything from my

Jim Kanichirayil:

childhood, that informed how I lead, I think there's a couple

Jim Kanichirayil:

of things that later on in life in high school and in college

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, you know, provided sort of the baseline, I always have this

Jim Kanichirayil:

entrepreneurial component to my DNA, like I've been working

Jim Kanichirayil:

since I was 13. So I was bussing tables at 13. And doing that

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of stuff. So I've been in foodservice and all that sort of

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff. And just generally being understanding or at least trying

Jim Kanichirayil:

to be understanding has always been part of my effort. I mean,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you learn a lot in terms of how crappy people can be when you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

bussing tables or waiting on him, because that has a wide

Jim Kanichirayil:

range of behaviors that you can encounter. So that informs you

Jim Kanichirayil:

to a certain level of well, you know, this happened, I don't

Jim Kanichirayil:

want to be feeling this way. So I'm going to be very deliberate

Jim Kanichirayil:

in making sure that I try not to make others feel that way. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

those are all like little experiences. But I've always had

Jim Kanichirayil:

this entrepreneurial bent, I ran a painting business. When I was

Jim Kanichirayil:

in college, my parents, my dad bought a gas station. That's

Jim Kanichirayil:

like a rite of passage for every Indian immigrant family, even

Jim Kanichirayil:

though he was a social worker, my mom was a nurse, apparently,

Jim Kanichirayil:

they had time on their hands. And he decided buying a gas

Jim Kanichirayil:

station was a good idea. It wasn't. So I ran that for a

Jim Kanichirayil:

while. So all of those things built that need to build things

Jim Kanichirayil:

and like iterate and continuously improve within a

Jim Kanichirayil:

framework. But I think the big thing that shaped a lot of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

leadership philosophy, it actually happened when I worked

Jim Kanichirayil:

for Lawrence, lb my co host, Lawrence Brown at enterprise,

Jim Kanichirayil:

the company that picks you up. And when I was interviewing for

Jim Kanichirayil:

a management trainee role. This was years ago, one of the first

Jim Kanichirayil:

things that he said at the time, we were there was the reason why

Jim Kanichirayil:

I like enterprise. And for those that aren't going to see the

Jim Kanichirayil:

video, I'm pointing at my hand, and I'm a brown person. And lb

Jim Kanichirayil:

says What I like most about working at enterprise is that

Jim Kanichirayil:

this stuff doesn't wash off. So you're evaluated based on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

merits of your production and your results versus any other

Jim Kanichirayil:

factor. And that was an interesting sort of mindset that

Jim Kanichirayil:

I adopted throughout my life. And when I've built teams

Jim Kanichirayil:

throughout my career, I've always been intentional about

Jim Kanichirayil:

building teams around me that are representative of the

Jim Kanichirayil:

communities that we serve. And oh, by the way, I've been really

Jim Kanichirayil:

lucky in having some phenomenal teams who were just ridiculously

Jim Kanichirayil:

elite in any number of different industries. Is there a causal

Jim Kanichirayil:

relationship? I don't know. But you know, I've had great people

Jim Kanichirayil:

on my team, and I was intentional and making sure that

Jim Kanichirayil:

they look the part of the communities I serve. So there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

a lot of research that backs that up, in fact that your

Jim Kanichirayil:

actual production and your performance as an organization

Jim Kanichirayil:

is going to be related to the diversity within the

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization. So more diverse organizations have better

Jim Kanichirayil:

business outcomes than non diverse organizations. But you

Jim Kanichirayil:

know, it's funny how a little comment like this stuff doesn't

Jim Kanichirayil:

wash off kind of plays into sort of a bigger role. Overall

Jim Kanichirayil:

employees strategy over the course of a, you know, half a

Jim Kanichirayil:

lifetime or whatever the the actual number of years are,

Wesleyne Greer:

you mentioned that, hey, I don't know what in

Wesleyne Greer:

my childhood impacted the way I lead, but just so everyone

Wesleyne Greer:

knows, since I have children, I believe that you are my child

Wesleyne Greer:

until you graduate from college. So anything up to 21 ounces

Wesleyne Greer:

childhood for me. And so when you talk about really helping

Wesleyne Greer:

your parents run a gas station and saying, Yeah, that was not a

Wesleyne Greer:

good investment, and really understanding at an early age,

Wesleyne Greer:

how to think about business and how to think about investments

Wesleyne Greer:

and how to serve people. And then going into this enterprise

Wesleyne Greer:

sales trainee role, probably about 25% of the people I

Wesleyne Greer:

interviewed on this podcast have gone through that program. And

Wesleyne Greer:

so I do think that what they give you in that program,

Wesleyne Greer:

although a lot of people don't stay with enterprise, they

Wesleyne Greer:

really give you a lot of bones and teach you how to sell teach

Wesleyne Greer:

you how to lead and those that want to take that and move to

Wesleyne Greer:

another level with it. They've gone on to do really amazing

Wesleyne Greer:

things.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Yeah. And you know what, that's a phenomenal

Jim Kanichirayil:

point that you bring out Wesleyan is the foundation that

Jim Kanichirayil:

it gives you because when we're thinking about decisioning

Jim Kanichirayil:

processes, you know, here I am never having worked in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

corporate environment. I mean, I've run small businesses and

Jim Kanichirayil:

all that sort of stuff. And I asked the question at some point

Jim Kanichirayil:

in training, like, how are we supposed to figure out what we

Jim Kanichirayil:

do. And I think this is a comment that lb gave me you have

Jim Kanichirayil:

three rules that you need to abide by, when you're making

Jim Kanichirayil:

decisions, if it's good for the customer, if it's good for the

Jim Kanichirayil:

company, and it's ethical, you have free rein to do and make

Jim Kanichirayil:

whatever decision you need to make in the moment. And if you

Jim Kanichirayil:

can answer yes to all three of those, you're not going to get a

Jim Kanichirayil:

fight from me in terms of, you know, why did you do that? Now

Jim Kanichirayil:

we might explore like, what other options would have been

Jim Kanichirayil:

available, but like that is the mindset that I've carried from

Jim Kanichirayil:

that point forward is I want my people or people that are on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

team to always operate in that framework, because I think it's

Jim Kanichirayil:

hugely empowering. And then from a leadership perspective, it

Jim Kanichirayil:

takes a lot of the granular, like the granular decision

Jim Kanichirayil:

making off of your plate, like you're focused more on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

important things, which is helping your people become more

Jim Kanichirayil:

productive and effective, versus answering every little situation

Jim Kanichirayil:

that comes up, you're giving them a decision making process

Jim Kanichirayil:

or framework that anybody can operate with. And I think that's

Jim Kanichirayil:

hugely empowering from a team effectiveness perspective. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're right enterprise does leave a great foundation, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

would be remiss if I didn't say there are some things about that

Jim Kanichirayil:

culture, or their training that didn't serve me well. And here's

Jim Kanichirayil:

what I mean. I mean, this is not going to be like super

Jim Kanichirayil:

controversial or anything like that. But it's an organization

Jim Kanichirayil:

that has an upper out mentality, meaning you need to either be

Jim Kanichirayil:

moving up in the organization, or you're moving out. And I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think I really connected with that, because I'm naturally

Jim Kanichirayil:

impatient. So of course, I'm going to want to progress my

Jim Kanichirayil:

career as fast as possible. But there's an element that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

learn later on in life, about building the discipline for

Jim Kanichirayil:

methodical, precise execution in detail orientation that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

don't get in that upper out. World. So I think one of the

Jim Kanichirayil:

things that probably didn't serve me well is that earlier in

Jim Kanichirayil:

my career, I probably made decisions too fast on moving out

Jim Kanichirayil:

of an organization where I probably would have been better

Jim Kanichirayil:

served and having those open conversations with my leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

team and saying, Hey, this is what I liked. This is what I

Jim Kanichirayil:

don't like, how do we make this work where I'm playing in my

Jim Kanichirayil:

wheelhouse within the organization versus let me go

Jim Kanichirayil:

find what else is out there. And then just repeating the cycle

Jim Kanichirayil:

over and over again, where instead of being disciplined,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and introspective and having the courage to have those

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations, you just keep introducing yourself into the

Jim Kanichirayil:

same culture and you don't really like get the staying

Jim Kanichirayil:

power and the benefits of staying power. So there's that

Jim Kanichirayil:

aspect of it too. Sorry for the monologue.

Wesleyne Greer:

That's absolutely. Okay. So going back

Wesleyne Greer:

to one of the first things that you said, I just wanted to make

Wesleyne Greer:

sure I heard it right. You said that what's most important in

Wesleyne Greer:

decision making is what's right for the customer. What's right

Wesleyne Greer:

for the company and your ethics. You didn't say anything about

Wesleyne Greer:

making money about being what is good for you, as a salesperson

Wesleyne Greer:

make the boss look good, right? Talk to us about that a little

Wesleyne Greer:

bit more.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think if you do those first three things,

Jim Kanichirayil:

right. And I would argue two out of the three are critical. One

Jim Kanichirayil:

is do what's right for the customer. That doesn't mean the

Jim Kanichirayil:

customer is always right. So I want to be clear there, do

Jim Kanichirayil:

what's right for the customer and be ethical. If you do both

Jim Kanichirayil:

of those things. Everything else will fall in line. I think where

Jim Kanichirayil:

sales professionals get this stuff backwards is that in

Jim Kanichirayil:

everything that the broader world of sales does, and this is

Jim Kanichirayil:

why people recoil whenever they have a salesperson interact with

Jim Kanichirayil:

them is it's all focused about me. It's all focused about our

Jim Kanichirayil:

product. It's all focused about what we want and what's in

Jim Kanichirayil:

According to me, nobody really cares. Nobody cares about you.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Nobody cares about your company. Nobody cares about what's

Jim Kanichirayil:

important to you. People are operating in the world from a

Jim Kanichirayil:

position of, I need to advance my own initiatives. So if you as

Jim Kanichirayil:

a seller, and a modern seller as a problem solver, if you really

Jim Kanichirayil:

orient yourself outward to how can you help your broader

Jim Kanichirayil:

customer base, solve the problems that they have, and be

Jim Kanichirayil:

obsessed about the problem that's actually going to advance

Jim Kanichirayil:

everything that you want without you actually overtly advocating

Jim Kanichirayil:

for those things? So there's a reason why I mentioned those

Jim Kanichirayil:

three things. Because if you do those three things, do what's

Jim Kanichirayil:

right for the customer, do what's right for the company, do

Jim Kanichirayil:

what's right, from an ethics perspective, everything else

Jim Kanichirayil:

falls in line. And you know, the fourth thing that I would add,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and this is not something that came from enterprise, if you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

a seller, you need to be oriented in a way where you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

giving two or three times more to the world around you than

Jim Kanichirayil:

what you ask. And that informs how we do follow ups that

Jim Kanichirayil:

informs how how we engage in conversation that informs us on

Jim Kanichirayil:

every interaction that we have, and people are going to get

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, oh, this person is different. Andy, Paul always

Jim Kanichirayil:

talks about how do you rise above the sea of sameness. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

that's how you rise above the sea of sameness. And if you

Jim Kanichirayil:

think about it, how low of a bar has sales set, when being

Jim Kanichirayil:

generous in a general sense, is like the aspirational goal,

Jim Kanichirayil:

right. But that's the thing. It's amazing to me,

Wesleyne Greer:

I think the really amazing part about how we

Wesleyne Greer:

both met is we were just following each other enjoying

Wesleyne Greer:

each other's posts. Because we hold a lot of the same

Wesleyne Greer:

philosophies. We're not trying to tell each other anything,

Wesleyne Greer:

right? We're trying to learn from each other. Because another

Wesleyne Greer:

key thing that you didn't mention about top salespeople

Wesleyne Greer:

leaders that want to develop is that they always are trying to

Wesleyne Greer:

figure out how can I get a little bit better? What can I

Wesleyne Greer:

learn today? What's the one thing that I can tweak? And how

Wesleyne Greer:

can I really take this to the next level? So you talked about

Wesleyne Greer:

all of this amazing things that you did in your early life and

Wesleyne Greer:

early career. I'm curious about these two letters that you have

Wesleyne Greer:

in front of Jim, tell us about that. How did that come to be?

Jim Kanichirayil:

So this is going to circle back to the

Jim Kanichirayil:

generation zero immigrant story. So, you know, I'm not saying

Jim Kanichirayil:

this to be offensive to anybody, but just about every Indian

Jim Kanichirayil:

mother dreams of their children becoming doctors, I can't stand

Jim Kanichirayil:

the sight of blood. So there was no way that I was going to be a

Jim Kanichirayil:

doctor. But I wanted to make sure that my mom would have

Jim Kanichirayil:

something to brag about. So eventually, I decided, well, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

got to do something to get this doctor title in front of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

name. So I went and completed my doctoral research. It was

Jim Kanichirayil:

probably like, six, seven years ago at this point, but it was in

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy. And actually, the research is essentially on

Jim Kanichirayil:

why people join and leave organizations. So again, it was

Jim Kanichirayil:

part of you know, it was employee retention and turnover

Jim Kanichirayil:

within the staffing industry context. And even at that time,

Jim Kanichirayil:

this was several years ago, when when I started that process, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

was always thinking about how can I add value to my hiring

Jim Kanichirayil:

managers that I'm trying to build relationships with? And

Jim Kanichirayil:

while everybody else in staffing is basically smiling and

Jim Kanichirayil:

dialing, trying to pick up the phone and saying, Hey, what

Jim Kanichirayil:

roles do you have open that we can help you fill? My approach

Jim Kanichirayil:

is how do I build this was even before brand identity or any of

Jim Kanichirayil:

that branding stuff was even on my radar? My thought process

Jim Kanichirayil:

was? How do I approach these conversations from a peer

Jim Kanichirayil:

position at a minimum? But ideally, how do I approach these

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations with hiring managers from a position of

Jim Kanichirayil:

authority from the perspective of helping them solve their

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy, and that was just one piece of it. And it was

Jim Kanichirayil:

an intentional piece, it was an expensive, intentional piece,

Jim Kanichirayil:

but you got to invest in yourself to build that sort of

Jim Kanichirayil:

credibility. And this was just one piece of that exercise. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

want to help organizations. This was 10 years ago that I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

thinking about this stuff, maybe 15. I want to help organizations

Jim Kanichirayil:

solve their talent challenges. So how do I do that and approach

Jim Kanichirayil:

it from both a tactical and strategic perspective, which has

Jim Kanichirayil:

massive value implications for the person that I'm dealing

Jim Kanichirayil:

with. And that's how I ended up you know, finishing out the

Jim Kanichirayil:

degree

Wesleyne Greer:

with a good son, I am actually a first generation

Wesleyne Greer:

American. My parents are originally from Jamaica, and in

Wesleyne Greer:

our culture, it's like, you're gonna be a doctor, you're gonna

Wesleyne Greer:

be a lawyer, you're gonna be an engineer, you got to get some

Wesleyne Greer:

kind of advanced degree. And so I majored in chemistry. I'm a

Wesleyne Greer:

chemist, and I was like, Yeah, but this is this is going to be

Wesleyne Greer:

it. I did Dibble and dabble in graduate school bits and pieces

Wesleyne Greer:

here and there. But I was like, Yeah, this is not it. And then

Wesleyne Greer:

when I was like, Oh, I'm wanting to sales. They're like you're

Wesleyne Greer:

doing what? Sales? No, no, no, no, no, you can't you can't do

Wesleyne Greer:

that. That is not an honorable, that's not what you do. You're

Wesleyne Greer:

gonna set your own business. But what Okay, what do you actually

Wesleyne Greer:

selling? I was like, What do you mean, this is a service like it

Wesleyne Greer:

was a foreign concept to them. So I do understand the different

Wesleyne Greer:

ways that parents like immigrant parents, they think and it's

Wesleyne Greer:

because of the hard upbringing there they always had to work so

Wesleyne Greer:

hard for everything, and so they want their children to be safe.

Wesleyne Greer:

it up in the best path. And the second part of what you said is,

Wesleyne Greer:

it really gave me goosebumps and listening to Yes, I wanted to

Wesleyne Greer:

satisfy what my parents wanted for me. But I also was very

Wesleyne Greer:

intentional about what I wanted this degree to do for me. And

Wesleyne Greer:

the fact that you are currently working in a place where you can

Wesleyne Greer:

use all of that, and you bring all of that to work, I think is

Wesleyne Greer:

the full circle of really connecting, hey, this is what my

Wesleyne Greer:

parents wanted. For me, this is what I desired to do. This is

Wesleyne Greer:

what I enjoyed doing, because I can listen to you talk about

Wesleyne Greer:

things in terms of talent, strategy and diversity all day

Wesleyne Greer:

long, because you have so much depth behind you,

Jim Kanichirayil:

me. So I have to be honest about all of that.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And I think that depth has developed from all of these

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations that I have with people all over the place. Like

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm not really like, this is not all stuff that I've thought up.

Jim Kanichirayil:

This is me constantly asking questions to the point of being

Jim Kanichirayil:

annoying to a lot of people about how do you do this? How do

Jim Kanichirayil:

you do that? Why is that important? And that's actually

Jim Kanichirayil:

going back to something that you mentioned earlier, like my side

Jim Kanichirayil:

of the story of how you and I connected comes routed from one

Jim Kanichirayil:

question, what do I need to be doing to connect with more

Jim Kanichirayil:

people and have more real conversations? So I asked that

Jim Kanichirayil:

question to a whole bunch of people. And Leslie Vaness was

Jim Kanichirayil:

one of the people that we connected with. And we know

Jim Kanichirayil:

Leslie, and she gave me like a list of people that I need to

Jim Kanichirayil:

talk to. So you were on that list. And I think you were like

Jim Kanichirayil:

the second person that I mentioned, it was in no

Jim Kanichirayil:

particular order. But I was like, Okay, well, I gotta get

Jim Kanichirayil:

around these people and find out what they're doing. And that was

Jim Kanichirayil:

like, I'm constantly looking at how can I get, you know, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

somebody in my network, named Adi. And his tagline is, my goal

Jim Kanichirayil:

is to be 1% Better than I was yesterday. And that's really my

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset forever. And when we're thinking about the

Jim Kanichirayil:

intentionality, and all these different areas that I can talk

Jim Kanichirayil:

about, it's a function of just having these conversations with

Jim Kanichirayil:

everybody in my network, I'm always looking for different

Jim Kanichirayil:

ways to kind of understand, you know, there's a great big world

Jim Kanichirayil:

that we're in, and all the interesting things that happen,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and some of that stuff just gets stuck in your head and like

Jim Kanichirayil:

rewires sort of your perspective. And I think the

Jim Kanichirayil:

longer that you can stay in that mode, where you're acting like a

Jim Kanichirayil:

three year old and asking questions about everything, the

Jim Kanichirayil:

more agile you become, regardless of age, in how you

Jim Kanichirayil:

can pick up all sorts of different things. And that for

Jim Kanichirayil:

me, it's pretty selfish, because I don't ever want to be in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

spot where the world is an interesting or people aren't

Jim Kanichirayil:

interesting, because I think it's infinitely interesting. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

people are infinitely interesting. And there's nothing

Jim Kanichirayil:

better than finding out their story like, how did you get from

Jim Kanichirayil:

where you are, to where you where you are now? Or how did

Jim Kanichirayil:

you come from where you were to where you are? Now, that's a

Jim Kanichirayil:

great story. And there's so much you can learn from like those

Jim Kanichirayil:

sorts of conversations.

Wesleyne Greer:

And so even though I tried to give you some

Wesleyne Greer:

accolades and praise, you put them down, and you said, yeah,

Wesleyne Greer:

yeah, but it's really not about me, it's about all these amazing

Wesleyne Greer:

people I've surrounding myself with and how they're helping me

Wesleyne Greer:

grow and develop. And I do think as a leader, that is one of the

Wesleyne Greer:

best things that we can do is really not talk about how

Wesleyne Greer:

amazing we are or how great we are all the amazing accolades

Wesleyne Greer:

and things that we have. But when we talk about the journey,

Wesleyne Greer:

we talk about the people who help them get to where we are.

Wesleyne Greer:

And we talk about how we want to pour back and pull those who are

Wesleyne Greer:

coming behind us up. So in your current position, you have a

Wesleyne Greer:

team of dynamic people share with us one of the challenges

Wesleyne Greer:

that you have had with leading your team in current days.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So I'll kind of frame it in this respect. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

I want to latch on to something that you just mentioned about,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you know, hey, pushing off some of the things that you were

Jim Kanichirayil:

trying to say. And here are the influences behind it. You know,

Jim Kanichirayil:

the reason why I'm like that, I'll blame Lawrence brown again,

Jim Kanichirayil:

because one of the things that he said from a hiring philosophy

Jim Kanichirayil:

perspective was when I'm hiring and developing people, my

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset is I want to hire and develop my replacement. And that

Jim Kanichirayil:

was a formative thought process as a professional. That's the

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset that I have when it comes to hiring and development.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And I think, generally speaking, if you're Brown of any variety,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you have some level of impostor syndrome that exists where

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're like, I'm not sure if I'm good enough at this, that or the

Jim Kanichirayil:

other thing. So there's a bit of that that plays in it. But to

Jim Kanichirayil:

answer your question about my team, are the team that we have

Jim Kanichirayil:

at circa these are phenomenal people. And it's like

Jim Kanichirayil:

supercharged, based off of the mission that we have as an

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization, like how many tech companies are out there that are

Jim Kanichirayil:

high growth that are leading with a diversity first mission

Jim Kanichirayil:

and go to market with like a ridiculous manifesto. Like you

Jim Kanichirayil:

should read that thing. It's crazy. I'd like did a video on

Jim Kanichirayil:

it. So if you have high caliber people that are aligned with a

Jim Kanichirayil:

mission and purpose versus As just high caliber people that

Jim Kanichirayil:

are in pursuit of money, there's a different element to it. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think when you're asking the question about what is the

Jim Kanichirayil:

challenge in tapping into that, I think one of the areas that

Jim Kanichirayil:

gets me heartburn is that I have this team of people that are

Jim Kanichirayil:

around me who I think are supremely talented, but getting

Jim Kanichirayil:

them to see themselves through my eyes is the challenge.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Because the stuff that I do, like I think anybody can do it.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think anybody can launch a podcast or do a LinkedIn live

Jim Kanichirayil:

show or write, like, you have so much information that's out

Jim Kanichirayil:

there that you could spin this up over a weekend, like I

Jim Kanichirayil:

launched talent strategy 60, over a weekend, because I saw an

Jim Kanichirayil:

opportunity to help the talent strategy community level up

Jim Kanichirayil:

using community intelligence when we're in the middle of or

Jim Kanichirayil:

approaching an economic downturn. So what happens in

Jim Kanichirayil:

that community, when budgets get slashed, you lose people, you

Jim Kanichirayil:

lose resources, you're told to do more with less. And now we

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually have the capability of leveraging all of these great

Jim Kanichirayil:

practitioners around the country to share their best practices

Jim Kanichirayil:

and help actual talent leaders actually do more with less. So I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think all of this stuff anybody can do, but it's getting people

Jim Kanichirayil:

to believe in themselves, that they can do it. That's really

Jim Kanichirayil:

like where my you know, revs are focused, like I spend a lot of

Jim Kanichirayil:

reps and trying to get people to see themselves the way that I

Jim Kanichirayil:

see them. Because I think once you unlock that, it's limitless

Jim Kanichirayil:

on where you can go to the point, like my first

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations were about, what's your view for yourself? What's

Jim Kanichirayil:

your vision for yourself, what's the better life that you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

seeking in this job and in all of your future jobs, because if

Jim Kanichirayil:

you lock into that, you're going to have that perpetual

Jim Kanichirayil:

accelerator that you can always push, and you don't need

Jim Kanichirayil:

external factors to do it. So it's tapping into that. That's

Jim Kanichirayil:

tricky. And especially as the new person that comes into an

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization and, and I'm a lot, my manager says I like to boil

Jim Kanichirayil:

the ocean at ease. He's freaking right, I think you can take 100

Jim Kanichirayil:

things all at once. And you and I have talked offline about that

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of stuff, I don't have the wiring in my head that says,

Jim Kanichirayil:

this thing is impossible. I think anything is possible, you

Jim Kanichirayil:

just have to figure out how to make it possible. So rant over,

Wesleyne Greer:

over. It's really a skill to be able to

Wesleyne Greer:

look at someone and really see in them what they can't see in

Wesleyne Greer:

themselves, and helping them to tap into it. Right? Because it's

Wesleyne Greer:

it's one thing to say I see that you're going to be this top

Wesleyne Greer:

salesperson or I see that you're one day going to replace me, but

Wesleyne Greer:

it's more so the challenge that a lot of leaders have or don't

Wesleyne Greer:

even know where to start is giving them that roadmap, like

Wesleyne Greer:

how do I get from just being ordinary to extraordinary,

Wesleyne Greer:

that's my new phrase, I think that's what I'm going to be

Wesleyne Greer:going into:Wesleyne Greer:

extraordinary? What are the things that I need to do? What's

Wesleyne Greer:

the roadmap that I need to get there and really, as leader,

Wesleyne Greer:

that is our responsibility. I talk about sales malpractice, I

Wesleyne Greer:

talk about leadership malpractice, and it is

Wesleyne Greer:

leadership malpractice to see a person struggling or to see

Wesleyne Greer:

somebody with untapped potential and do nothing about it. So as

Wesleyne Greer:

leaders, that is our responsibility, it is our

Wesleyne Greer:

responsibility to have our team shine brighter than we do.

Wesleyne Greer:

Because it's not about us, we must minimize ourselves, and we

Wesleyne Greer:

must elevate the team. Because once your team succeeds, then

Wesleyne Greer:

you succeed. And as a leader, if you don't have that as the

Wesleyne Greer:

forefront in your mind of your strategy, then at some point,

Wesleyne Greer:

you're gonna stumble and you're gonna fall

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, I have no argument with that. And I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

that's probably one of the gaps that I have as a leader is that

Jim Kanichirayil:

I've always been a lead from the front person. And I think in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

in the role that I'm in right now, one of the biggest things

Jim Kanichirayil:

that I've had to adjust or at least get better at is building

Jim Kanichirayil:

the operational discipline, and being more in the background,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and the jury's still out on whether I'll ever build that

Jim Kanichirayil:

operational metrics focus to the level that I needed to be. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think I'm competent. But you know, you have to look at what

Jim Kanichirayil:

are the things that give you energy? And what are the things

Jim Kanichirayil:

that take energy away from you. And when I think about what

Jim Kanichirayil:

gives me energy, it's being client facing and really in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

team selling environment being client facing where I can

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually influence the sale by instant messaging, instant

Jim Kanichirayil:

messaging off the side, while a rep is actually going through

Jim Kanichirayil:

the selling process where I can influence is auditing phone

Jim Kanichirayil:

calls and emails to make sure that they're buyer centric and

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff like that. That's where I have fun. I have a ton of fun

Jim Kanichirayil:

prospecting. I don't know if I'll ever fall in love with the

Jim Kanichirayil:

operation side of it, but I don't need to like my leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

style is rooted firmly in identify what you're strongest

Jim Kanichirayil:

at and play to that strength versus focusing on building up

Jim Kanichirayil:

your weaknesses be on the level that gets you to competence, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think you just need to be competent in the areas that

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're weak. I think the expectation that you'd be

Jim Kanichirayil:

excellent at all things is kind of backwards.

Wesleyne Greer:

Absolutely. As a business owner, as a division

Wesleyne Greer:

leader, as a business unit leader, whatever you are, I do

Wesleyne Greer:

think, and I agree with this 100% wholeheartedly, you should

Wesleyne Greer:

know how to do everything within your organization. But you don't

Wesleyne Greer:

have to know how to do it well, but you need to understand it at

Wesleyne Greer:

a baseline level so that you can see if the ship is going off

Wesleyne Greer:

track. So if we are running, who knows reports in our CRM, you

Wesleyne Greer:

should know how to run a report, you don't need to know how to

Wesleyne Greer:

build the report, but you need to know if the data that you're

Wesleyne Greer:

getting doesn't make sense. So you can go back to the person

Wesleyne Greer:

building the report to say, hey, can we make some tweaks here?

Wesleyne Greer:

What inputs did you use, because I'm not getting the right

Wesleyne Greer:

output. And as a leader, so many times we think we got to touch

Wesleyne Greer:

everything, we got to do everything. But that is not your

Wesleyne Greer:

job. Your job is to be the visionary, your job is to be the

Wesleyne Greer:

coach, your job is to be the strategic thinker to lead the

Wesleyne Greer:

organization to lead your team and you let them execute.

Wesleyne Greer:

Because if you touch everything, then what you're doing is you're

Wesleyne Greer:

not developing a bench. There's no bench, all the knowledge is

Wesleyne Greer:

in your brain. And no one else knows how to do anything else.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Yeah, again, no argument there. I think when

Jim Kanichirayil:

I look at myself, the gap that I have, in terms of leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

style is that there's a lot of stuff that I do instinctively

Jim Kanichirayil:

that it's difficult for me to break it down into step by step

Jim Kanichirayil:

process. So I've inserted myself alongside my team generally, to

Jim Kanichirayil:

show them like, here's what I do, ask me questions about it.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And then we can map it out together for me to like, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

so many things that I don't even pay attention to that just run

Jim Kanichirayil:

on autopilot or instinct, it's hard for me to break it down

Jim Kanichirayil:

into a process. So that's been the other area where I've been

Jim Kanichirayil:

aware of it. And I'm trying to work that back. But honestly,

Jim Kanichirayil:

like, I love being in the game man. The same man, but I love

Jim Kanichirayil:

being in the game, dude. So it's like, it's tough to just like

Jim Kanichirayil:

back out and not be client facing I swear, I think if I was

Jim Kanichirayil:

just pushing metrics, or doing that sort of stuff for all day

Jim Kanichirayil:

long, I would drive myself insane. That is not fun for me.

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, so but that's a different story.

Wesleyne Greer:

That's all different podcast a little

Wesleyne Greer:

different episode. One tip that I can give you and I give this

Wesleyne Greer:

to my clients often is that in order to build this bench, or to

Wesleyne Greer:

extract the things from your brain, like you have to become

Wesleyne Greer:

evergreen, I've literally been recording every single meeting

Wesleyne Greer:

that I've had for two years. Why? I don't know, I'm just

Wesleyne Greer:

recording it. And now I have a library of like, I don't know,

Wesleyne Greer:

way too many things like probably 500 videos, and they're

Wesleyne Greer:

all named right in the description, I say what we've

Wesleyne Greer:

talked about, so I can share that with someone, right? When

Wesleyne Greer:

they come onto the team. I'm like, okay, so you need to do

Wesleyne Greer:

this kind of coaching, you need to work with this, or with a

Wesleyne Greer:

team, it's there. Because one of the challenges that I have is

Wesleyne Greer:

you asked me what I do. And I'm like, I don't know, like, give

Wesleyne Greer:

me a scenario, right? Tell me what's happening. And then I'll

Wesleyne Greer:

respond. And so it's hard for us, because we've been doing

Wesleyne Greer:

this for so long. And there's so many things in our brain, that

Wesleyne Greer:

it's hard to dump that information out. And even like

Wesleyne Greer:

sales leaders, I had one that I was working with recently, and

Wesleyne Greer:

they're like, Well, we're gonna have an in person, and

Wesleyne Greer:

everybody's not gonna be there. I was like, throw on teams, and

Wesleyne Greer:

record yourself, literally just do it. It doesn't matter if

Wesleyne Greer:

you're in the room, they have the little owl thing that hears

Wesleyne Greer:

everybody when they talk, so just do it. And that's how you

Wesleyne Greer:

start developing all your knowledge, your database, this

Wesleyne Greer:

encyclopedia of Dr. Jim. So Dr. Jim, you have had a very, very

Wesleyne Greer:

fulfilling life, el very amazing career, can you share one thing

Wesleyne Greer:

that has impacted the way that you lead?

Jim Kanichirayil:

I mean, aside from the things that Lawrence

Jim Kanichirayil:

has mentioned, that I referenced earlier in the show, like this

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff doesn't wash it off, you should be hiring with the

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset of hiring or replacement. Because if you want

Jim Kanichirayil:

to actually grow in your career, that's the mentality that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

should have. Never be afraid of people that are better than you

Jim Kanichirayil:

because that's the only way that you're actually going to get

Jim Kanichirayil:

better. So there's like stuff that we recapped earlier in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

show. But I think the one thing that I don't know where it came

Jim Kanichirayil:

from, but I think the longer that you can operate in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

world with the mindset of a three year old. Why is this the

Jim Kanichirayil:

way it is? Why does it have to be the way it is? What could be

Jim Kanichirayil:

done differently? All of these questions, if you can walk into

Jim Kanichirayil:

just about every interaction with that mindset of

Jim Kanichirayil:

asymmetrical thinking, the better off you're going to be.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And here's why that's important. We spend all of our younger life

Jim Kanichirayil:

in school in secondary education, higher education, and

Jim Kanichirayil:

we're being drilled into us that the object of the exercise is to

Jim Kanichirayil:

find the right answer. And that teaches us to be timid. And I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think that is a fundamental failure of the education system.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So instead of thinking about an obsession Thinking about getting

Jim Kanichirayil:

the right answer we should be thinking about and obsessing

Jim Kanichirayil:

about how can we break stuff, because if we break stuff we

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually learned the most from that experience. And we can

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually be more mentally agile in how we go about the world. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

always be curious. Don't be afraid to break stuff. Don't be

Jim Kanichirayil:

afraid of being wrong, because that's actually where your leaps

Jim Kanichirayil:

of innovation happen versus just getting the right answer.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Getting the right answer teaches you to play it safe. And there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

nothing more boring in life than having played it safe. Don't

Jim Kanichirayil:

play it safe. Thank you for attending my TED talk.

Wesleyne Greer:

I love. So be curious, right? Ask questions

Wesleyne Greer:

when I am mentoring, usually young sellers. And typically

Wesleyne Greer:

it's women, because women as salespeople tend to have, you

Wesleyne Greer:

know, apprehensions if you will. And I tell them, that thing that

Wesleyne Greer:

people told you was so annoying, when you were growing up when

Wesleyne Greer:

you were in school, and all your other jobs is what's going to

Wesleyne Greer:

make you really amazing in sales. And for me, it's the

Wesleyne Greer:

curiosity, I would ask why all the time. Like, that's why I

Wesleyne Greer:

couldn't work in the lab anymore. Because I was like, why

Wesleyne Greer:

am I doing this test? Why do you need this new material? We're

Wesleyne Greer:

like, what, sweetie, can you just be quiet and do the things.

Wesleyne Greer:

So that curiosity is what helps us continue to grow and develop

Wesleyne Greer:

as individual contributors, as leaders as business owners

Wesleyne Greer:

having curiosity and knowing that it is absolutely okay to

Wesleyne Greer:

fail, right? Failure is not bad. It teaches you something and

Wesleyne Greer:

teaches you had to tweak and change, and then move forward.

Wesleyne Greer:

So Dr. Jim, I know that you have an amazing podcast, and there

Wesleyne Greer:

are many things that you're doing out there in the world,

Wesleyne Greer:

tell us what is the one best way for people to get in contact

Wesleyne Greer:

with

Jim Kanichirayil:

you, if you're looking for one best way,

Jim Kanichirayil:

LinkedIn is the way to go. So obviously, if you're connected

Jim Kanichirayil:

with West lien and not connected with me ask for an intro. But

Jim Kanichirayil:

you can find me all over LinkedIn, I post daily, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

a bunch of content that I push out. So that's the easiest way

Jim Kanichirayil:

to connect with me. And the fastest way to connect, it's my

Jim Kanichirayil:

most active channel.

Wesleyne Greer:

Awesome. And tell us a little bit about your

Wesleyne Greer:

podcast and what it's called. Sure.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So Lawrence, and I, Lawrence Brown, and I run

Jim Kanichirayil:

the cascading leadership podcast, that particular podcast

Jim Kanichirayil:

is in season two. So we're not when we grow up, we want to be

Jim Kanichirayil:

like Wesleyne. So we're not quite there yet. But the podcast

Jim Kanichirayil:

features senior leaders, women, immigrants, people of color, who

Jim Kanichirayil:

have risen to senior leadership, and the intent of the show is to

Jim Kanichirayil:

share all of their learnings so that you can leverage it as a

Jim Kanichirayil:

cliff notes if you're an emerging professional to advance

Jim Kanichirayil:

your career further, faster. So that's cascading leadership. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

then I also recently launched talent strategy 60, which I

Jim Kanichirayil:

referenced earlier in the show. So it's a LinkedIn live show

Jim Kanichirayil:

focused on any and all areas of talent strategy, and helping the

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy community gather best practices, so that they can

Jim Kanichirayil:

advance their internal initiatives faster than what

Jim Kanichirayil:

might be available due to resource constraints.

Wesleyne Greer:

Amazing. So you, you don't just have one job or

Wesleyne Greer:

two jobs, like a typical immigrant, you have many, many

Wesleyne Greer:

jobs. And this is just candy. Still,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you laugh about the typical immigrant

Jim Kanichirayil:

comment. I hear it all the time. I mean, like, I have a pretty

Jim Kanichirayil:

diverse network with a lot of immigrants. And I don't know, a

Jim Kanichirayil:

single one that has less than, like five jobs. I know,

Wesleyne Greer:

I know. And I'm first generation American, and

Wesleyne Greer:

it's still ingrained in my brain. And even my kids are

Wesleyne Greer:

like, yeah, when I grew up, I'm gonna have this business and

Wesleyne Greer:

that business and do this and that. So there's nothing wrong

Wesleyne Greer:

with being ambitious. Dr. Jim, this has been an amazing,

Wesleyne Greer:

amazing conversation you have thoroughly enriched our lives

Wesleyne Greer:

and help us to transform our sales. So I thank you for your

Wesleyne Greer:

time, your talent, your energy, and most of all the knowledge

Wesleyne Greer:

that you gave us today.

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, it was, it was a great fun conversation,

Jim Kanichirayil:

but it's not the first time that you and I have chatted, so I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

not surprised that it was fun. But thanks for having me on, and

Jim Kanichirayil:

I appreciate the opportunity. Wesleyne

Wesleyne Greer:

Thanks so much again, and that was another

Wesleyne Greer:

episode of the transform sales podcast. Remember each and every

Wesleyne Greer:

day strive to be one person better and transform your sales.

Get Your FREE GUIDE to A Build High-Performance Sales Team at https://go.transformedsales.com/p3

Highlights

  • [01:08] – From poor Generation Zero immigrant to Dr. Jim Kanichirayil.
  • [06:45] – The life experiences that informed his current leadership style.
  • [11:25] – Decision making = What’s right for the customer, company, and your ethics.
  • [17:03] – How he got the doctor’s title in front of his name.
  • [20:32] – Becoming an expert in sales, leadership, talent strategy, and diversity.
  • [27:23] – Why you need to be more in the background as a sales leader.
  • [33:36] – Having the mindset of a three-year-old and why it’s so powerful.

In this episode of the Transformed Sales Podcast, I interviewed Dr. Jim Kanichirayil, talent strategy transformation evangelist at Circa and host of The Cascading Leadership Podcast. Jim helps leaders, people, and organizations drive transformations by helping them build elite diverse teams. He also makes sure that their talent strategy doesnt get left behind. Dr. Jim tells us what modern sales leaders can do to attract, retain and develop more talent and how a shift in mindset has to happen for that to be achievable. 

We talked a lot about empowering your sales team and the different ways to do it, why sales should be a solutions engine and not just a product source, and how sales leaders can expand their capabilities. Jim will also share the kind of conversations leaders should have with their teams to create more commitment and engagement. Tune for that and so much more in all things sales success.

Quotes

“Your actual production and your performance as an organization is going to be related to the diversity within the organization” – Jim Kanichirayil

“More diverse organizations have better business outcomes than non-diverse organizations” – Jim Kanichirayil

“If you do what’s right for the customer, what’s right for the company, what’s right from an ethics perspective, everything else falls in line” – Jim Kanichirayil

“A modern seller is a problem solver” – Jim Kanichirayil

“If you as a seller orient yourself outward to how you can help your broader customer base solve the problems that they have and be obsessed about the problem, that’s actually going to advance everything that you want without you actually overtly advocating for those things” – Jim Kanichirayil

“You should be hiring with the mindset of hiring a replacement” – Jim Kanichirayil

“Never be afraid of people that are better than you because that’s the only way that you’re actually gonna get better” – Jim Kanichirayil

“Don’t be afraid of being wrong because that’s actually where your leaps of innovation happen versus just getting the right answer” – Jim Kanichirayil

Learn More About Jim Kanichirayil in the Links Below:

Connect with Wesleyne Greer:

  • Wesleyne’s Website – https://transformedsales.com/
  • Wesleyne on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesleynegreer/
  • Wesleyne on Facebook – https://web.facebook.com/wesleynegreer
  • Wesleyne on Twitter – https://twitter.com/wesleynegreer
  • Email Her at WGreer@TransformedSales.com
Transcript
Wesleyne Greer:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of

Wesleyne Greer:

the transform sales Podcast. Today I am in great company, I

Wesleyne Greer:

have Dr. Jim can eat Reaugh. How are you, Dr. Jim?

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm fantastic. He nailed my pronunciation of

Jim Kanichirayil:

the last name. So very few people get that right. So I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

happy to be here. And we're starting off the show on a

Jim Kanichirayil:

really strong footing there.

Wesleyne Greer:

Yay, it is because my name is so hard to

Wesleyne Greer:

say. And so when somebody asks me, how do you pronounce it, I

Wesleyne Greer:

really try to lean into it. So I try to save people's names right

Wesleyne Greer:

when I can. So let me tell you guys a little bit more about Dr.

Wesleyne Greer:

Jim. He's a researcher, writer, and podcaster. If you have not

Wesleyne Greer:

listened to his podcast yet, you should definitely do it. But he

Wesleyne Greer:

helps leaders, people and organizations drive

Wesleyne Greer:

transformations by helping them build elite diverse teams, he

Wesleyne Greer:

also makes sure that talent and your talent strategy doesn't get

Wesleyne Greer:

left behind. I love that talent in your talent strategy not

Wesleyne Greer:

getting left behind. That's awesome. So tell us how did Dr.

Wesleyne Greer:

Jim start his career to become this amazing person who is so

Wesleyne Greer:

focused on diversity in teams in sales in everything, tell us

Wesleyne Greer:

about that journey.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I don't know about how amazing all that is.

Jim Kanichirayil:

It's kind of like the ultimate nerd story. So I mean, I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

in broad strokes, if we're talking about how I got to where

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm at right now and where I'm heading, I'm a generation zero

Jim Kanichirayil:

immigrant. And I've referenced this in sort of the earliest

Jim Kanichirayil:

episodes of my podcast that I host with myself and Lawrence

Jim Kanichirayil:

Brown is that we were so poor, I'm originally from India, we

Jim Kanichirayil:

were so poor, that the trigger that flipped us coming to the US

Jim Kanichirayil:

was me basically melting down in the middle of a grocery store,

Jim Kanichirayil:

because we couldn't afford an apple. So I had seen an apple

Jim Kanichirayil:

for the first time wanted it, couldn't afford it, and my mom,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you know, decided at that point, I gotta get a better life for my

Jim Kanichirayil:

kids. And that started the process of coming to the US. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

how that ties into kind of where I'm at, I've always had this

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of grinder hungry personality or aspect about

Jim Kanichirayil:

myself, because of where I came from. And you know, in terms of

Jim Kanichirayil:

how I got to where I'm at right now, I've always been a super

Jim Kanichirayil:

nerd, like, there are so many different things that interests

Jim Kanichirayil:

me. And I'd like to go deep in those areas. But in general, the

Jim Kanichirayil:

world is just interesting to me. So I like to have at least a

Jim Kanichirayil:

baseline level of knowledge across any number of things. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

one of the things that I noticed as I was early in my career and

Jim Kanichirayil:

then progressing through is that organizations and companies are

Jim Kanichirayil:

always looking at, we got to get more people, we got to keep the

Jim Kanichirayil:

funnel going in terms of pipeline, but the area that

Jim Kanichirayil:

always gets forgotten is internally, you're always

Jim Kanichirayil:

obsessed about bringing people in, but what are you doing to

Jim Kanichirayil:

keep the people that you have and oftentimes, the culture

Jim Kanichirayil:

within organizations isn't set up in a way where you can have

Jim Kanichirayil:

those sorts of conversations and talk about what's your vision

Jim Kanichirayil:

for yourself, Where do you want to go that sort of stuff. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

that actually informed a lot of my my research in areas of

Jim Kanichirayil:

interest. And that really is where I became passionate about

Jim Kanichirayil:

retention, turnover, development, di issues, all of

Jim Kanichirayil:

these sorts of things. It took time, as I got further and

Jim Kanichirayil:

further involved. And that's kind of how I got here. I've

Jim Kanichirayil:

been fortunate in that I've always been able to tie these

Jim Kanichirayil:

nerd areas into what I do. I mean, I have that long as title

Jim Kanichirayil:

that you just read. But you know, essentially, I'm in sales.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So I've worked very deliberately, in integrating my

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent, strategy passions into the roles that I've had, I've

Jim Kanichirayil:

had talent, adjacent roles and technology, talent, adjacent

Jim Kanichirayil:

roles and staffing. You know, I'm in a SAS technology

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization right now that is focused on driving diversity in

Jim Kanichirayil:

the workplace. So it's kind of like a process that led to kind

Jim Kanichirayil:

of where I'm at, and who knows where it's going to go, because

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm going to keep grinding in these areas. And who knows where

Jim Kanichirayil:

that will take me in the long run. So hopefully, that helps

Jim Kanichirayil:

give you a little bit of a little bit of background

Wesleyne Greer:

that gave me a whole lot. So you talked about

Wesleyne Greer:

being a generation zero immigrant help enlighten us on

Wesleyne Greer:

what it means to be a generation zero immigrant and what those

Wesleyne Greer:

early years were like for you acclimating into the US,

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think what's interesting about fitting in, in

Jim Kanichirayil:

that immigrant journey, is that I had the benefit when I was in

Jim Kanichirayil:

India, that English is the national language along with

Jim Kanichirayil:

Hindi and a couple of other things that is going to be based

Jim Kanichirayil:

on what region you came up in. So I already knew English and I

Jim Kanichirayil:

was speaking English fluently when I came over here, but you

Jim Kanichirayil:

know, the adjustment period was pretty interesting. I had an

Jim Kanichirayil:

advantage where I could communicate with an English

Jim Kanichirayil:

accent. So like a British speakers accent at the time, so

Jim Kanichirayil:

I came over when I was seven, but I'd never seen like one of

Jim Kanichirayil:

the interesting stories about my first experiences here. When we

Jim Kanichirayil:

came over one of the stops that we had, before we switch to a

Jim Kanichirayil:

different plane to come to Chicago was in New York, and it

Jim Kanichirayil:

was in LaGuardia. And at the time, they didn't have the

Jim Kanichirayil:

terminal, they had those little trucks with stairs. And here I

Jim Kanichirayil:

am, as a seven year old kid, never seen snow before we came

Jim Kanichirayil:

over in December. So I'm thinking that when these stair

Jim Kanichirayil:

things came up to the door, I was racing to the front to be

Jim Kanichirayil:

the first off, and I look. And the first thing that I see is a

Jim Kanichirayil:

layer of white stuff that's this high. And I'm thinking America

Jim Kanichirayil:

is freaking great, because there's sugar everywhere. So I

Jim Kanichirayil:

grabbed a handful of it. Before my dad could, like grabbed my

Jim Kanichirayil:

hand and stuck it in my mouth. And I was disappointed in terms

Jim Kanichirayil:

of, well, this isn't sugar, it's cold. But that was one of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

first memories in coming over to the states, the adjustment

Jim Kanichirayil:

period as an immigrant was made easier because of my ability to

Jim Kanichirayil:

communicate. But there are a lot of cultural differences and

Jim Kanichirayil:

things like that. And this was, you know, in an era where

Jim Kanichirayil:

immigrants were probably even more, I don't want to say

Jim Kanichirayil:

frowned upon, but there was more animosity to an immigrant

Jim Kanichirayil:

community at that time there there is now but I think beyond

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, you know, where I lived, it was the Chicago suburbs. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

we lived in Oak Park, and then we lived in Evanston. So all of

Jim Kanichirayil:

these areas were fairly cosmopolitan. So it was an

Jim Kanichirayil:

easier transition, I think it would have been a lot more

Jim Kanichirayil:

difficult. If I was in middle of nowhere, I don't know, Idaho, or

Jim Kanichirayil:

something, no offense to anybody that lives in Idaho, but I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

that would have been a little bit tougher to make that

Jim Kanichirayil:

transition. So as

Wesleyne Greer:

a child, as a person new to this country, I

Wesleyne Greer:

really love what you said you'd like to sugar, and I can

Wesleyne Greer:

absolutely see how as a child never seen snow, how you would

Wesleyne Greer:

think about that. One thing that I know is so true is that the

Wesleyne Greer:

experiences that we have in our childhood, they impact the way

Wesleyne Greer:

that we lead. So which of those early experiences do you see

Wesleyne Greer:

helping you become and have developed your leadership style,

Jim Kanichirayil:

so I can't really point to anything from my

Jim Kanichirayil:

childhood, that informed how I lead, I think there's a couple

Jim Kanichirayil:

of things that later on in life in high school and in college

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, you know, provided sort of the baseline, I always have this

Jim Kanichirayil:

entrepreneurial component to my DNA, like I've been working

Jim Kanichirayil:

since I was 13. So I was bussing tables at 13. And doing that

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of stuff. So I've been in foodservice and all that sort of

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff. And just generally being understanding or at least trying

Jim Kanichirayil:

to be understanding has always been part of my effort. I mean,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you learn a lot in terms of how crappy people can be when you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

bussing tables or waiting on him, because that has a wide

Jim Kanichirayil:

range of behaviors that you can encounter. So that informs you

Jim Kanichirayil:

to a certain level of well, you know, this happened, I don't

Jim Kanichirayil:

want to be feeling this way. So I'm going to be very deliberate

Jim Kanichirayil:

in making sure that I try not to make others feel that way. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

those are all like little experiences. But I've always had

Jim Kanichirayil:

this entrepreneurial bent, I ran a painting business. When I was

Jim Kanichirayil:

in college, my parents, my dad bought a gas station. That's

Jim Kanichirayil:

like a rite of passage for every Indian immigrant family, even

Jim Kanichirayil:

though he was a social worker, my mom was a nurse, apparently,

Jim Kanichirayil:

they had time on their hands. And he decided buying a gas

Jim Kanichirayil:

station was a good idea. It wasn't. So I ran that for a

Jim Kanichirayil:

while. So all of those things built that need to build things

Jim Kanichirayil:

and like iterate and continuously improve within a

Jim Kanichirayil:

framework. But I think the big thing that shaped a lot of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

leadership philosophy, it actually happened when I worked

Jim Kanichirayil:

for Lawrence, lb my co host, Lawrence Brown at enterprise,

Jim Kanichirayil:

the company that picks you up. And when I was interviewing for

Jim Kanichirayil:

a management trainee role. This was years ago, one of the first

Jim Kanichirayil:

things that he said at the time, we were there was the reason why

Jim Kanichirayil:

I like enterprise. And for those that aren't going to see the

Jim Kanichirayil:

video, I'm pointing at my hand, and I'm a brown person. And lb

Jim Kanichirayil:

says What I like most about working at enterprise is that

Jim Kanichirayil:

this stuff doesn't wash off. So you're evaluated based on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

merits of your production and your results versus any other

Jim Kanichirayil:

factor. And that was an interesting sort of mindset that

Jim Kanichirayil:

I adopted throughout my life. And when I've built teams

Jim Kanichirayil:

throughout my career, I've always been intentional about

Jim Kanichirayil:

building teams around me that are representative of the

Jim Kanichirayil:

communities that we serve. And oh, by the way, I've been really

Jim Kanichirayil:

lucky in having some phenomenal teams who were just ridiculously

Jim Kanichirayil:

elite in any number of different industries. Is there a causal

Jim Kanichirayil:

relationship? I don't know. But you know, I've had great people

Jim Kanichirayil:

on my team, and I was intentional and making sure that

Jim Kanichirayil:

they look the part of the communities I serve. So there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

a lot of research that backs that up, in fact that your

Jim Kanichirayil:

actual production and your performance as an organization

Jim Kanichirayil:

is going to be related to the diversity within the

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization. So more diverse organizations have better

Jim Kanichirayil:

business outcomes than non diverse organizations. But you

Jim Kanichirayil:

know, it's funny how a little comment like this stuff doesn't

Jim Kanichirayil:

wash off kind of plays into sort of a bigger role. Overall

Jim Kanichirayil:

employees strategy over the course of a, you know, half a

Jim Kanichirayil:

lifetime or whatever the the actual number of years are,

Wesleyne Greer:

you mentioned that, hey, I don't know what in

Wesleyne Greer:

my childhood impacted the way I lead, but just so everyone

Wesleyne Greer:

knows, since I have children, I believe that you are my child

Wesleyne Greer:

until you graduate from college. So anything up to 21 ounces

Wesleyne Greer:

childhood for me. And so when you talk about really helping

Wesleyne Greer:

your parents run a gas station and saying, Yeah, that was not a

Wesleyne Greer:

good investment, and really understanding at an early age,

Wesleyne Greer:

how to think about business and how to think about investments

Wesleyne Greer:

and how to serve people. And then going into this enterprise

Wesleyne Greer:

sales trainee role, probably about 25% of the people I

Wesleyne Greer:

interviewed on this podcast have gone through that program. And

Wesleyne Greer:

so I do think that what they give you in that program,

Wesleyne Greer:

although a lot of people don't stay with enterprise, they

Wesleyne Greer:

really give you a lot of bones and teach you how to sell teach

Wesleyne Greer:

you how to lead and those that want to take that and move to

Wesleyne Greer:

another level with it. They've gone on to do really amazing

Wesleyne Greer:

things.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Yeah. And you know what, that's a phenomenal

Jim Kanichirayil:

point that you bring out Wesleyan is the foundation that

Jim Kanichirayil:

it gives you because when we're thinking about decisioning

Jim Kanichirayil:

processes, you know, here I am never having worked in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

corporate environment. I mean, I've run small businesses and

Jim Kanichirayil:

all that sort of stuff. And I asked the question at some point

Jim Kanichirayil:

in training, like, how are we supposed to figure out what we

Jim Kanichirayil:

do. And I think this is a comment that lb gave me you have

Jim Kanichirayil:

three rules that you need to abide by, when you're making

Jim Kanichirayil:

decisions, if it's good for the customer, if it's good for the

Jim Kanichirayil:

company, and it's ethical, you have free rein to do and make

Jim Kanichirayil:

whatever decision you need to make in the moment. And if you

Jim Kanichirayil:

can answer yes to all three of those, you're not going to get a

Jim Kanichirayil:

fight from me in terms of, you know, why did you do that? Now

Jim Kanichirayil:

we might explore like, what other options would have been

Jim Kanichirayil:

available, but like that is the mindset that I've carried from

Jim Kanichirayil:

that point forward is I want my people or people that are on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

team to always operate in that framework, because I think it's

Jim Kanichirayil:

hugely empowering. And then from a leadership perspective, it

Jim Kanichirayil:

takes a lot of the granular, like the granular decision

Jim Kanichirayil:

making off of your plate, like you're focused more on the

Jim Kanichirayil:

important things, which is helping your people become more

Jim Kanichirayil:

productive and effective, versus answering every little situation

Jim Kanichirayil:

that comes up, you're giving them a decision making process

Jim Kanichirayil:

or framework that anybody can operate with. And I think that's

Jim Kanichirayil:

hugely empowering from a team effectiveness perspective. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're right enterprise does leave a great foundation, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

would be remiss if I didn't say there are some things about that

Jim Kanichirayil:

culture, or their training that didn't serve me well. And here's

Jim Kanichirayil:

what I mean. I mean, this is not going to be like super

Jim Kanichirayil:

controversial or anything like that. But it's an organization

Jim Kanichirayil:

that has an upper out mentality, meaning you need to either be

Jim Kanichirayil:

moving up in the organization, or you're moving out. And I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think I really connected with that, because I'm naturally

Jim Kanichirayil:

impatient. So of course, I'm going to want to progress my

Jim Kanichirayil:

career as fast as possible. But there's an element that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

learn later on in life, about building the discipline for

Jim Kanichirayil:

methodical, precise execution in detail orientation that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

don't get in that upper out. World. So I think one of the

Jim Kanichirayil:

things that probably didn't serve me well is that earlier in

Jim Kanichirayil:

my career, I probably made decisions too fast on moving out

Jim Kanichirayil:

of an organization where I probably would have been better

Jim Kanichirayil:

served and having those open conversations with my leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

team and saying, Hey, this is what I liked. This is what I

Jim Kanichirayil:

don't like, how do we make this work where I'm playing in my

Jim Kanichirayil:

wheelhouse within the organization versus let me go

Jim Kanichirayil:

find what else is out there. And then just repeating the cycle

Jim Kanichirayil:

over and over again, where instead of being disciplined,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and introspective and having the courage to have those

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations, you just keep introducing yourself into the

Jim Kanichirayil:

same culture and you don't really like get the staying

Jim Kanichirayil:

power and the benefits of staying power. So there's that

Jim Kanichirayil:

aspect of it too. Sorry for the monologue.

Wesleyne Greer:

That's absolutely. Okay. So going back

Wesleyne Greer:

to one of the first things that you said, I just wanted to make

Wesleyne Greer:

sure I heard it right. You said that what's most important in

Wesleyne Greer:

decision making is what's right for the customer. What's right

Wesleyne Greer:

for the company and your ethics. You didn't say anything about

Wesleyne Greer:

making money about being what is good for you, as a salesperson

Wesleyne Greer:

make the boss look good, right? Talk to us about that a little

Wesleyne Greer:

bit more.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think if you do those first three things,

Jim Kanichirayil:

right. And I would argue two out of the three are critical. One

Jim Kanichirayil:

is do what's right for the customer. That doesn't mean the

Jim Kanichirayil:

customer is always right. So I want to be clear there, do

Jim Kanichirayil:

what's right for the customer and be ethical. If you do both

Jim Kanichirayil:

of those things. Everything else will fall in line. I think where

Jim Kanichirayil:

sales professionals get this stuff backwards is that in

Jim Kanichirayil:

everything that the broader world of sales does, and this is

Jim Kanichirayil:

why people recoil whenever they have a salesperson interact with

Jim Kanichirayil:

them is it's all focused about me. It's all focused about our

Jim Kanichirayil:

product. It's all focused about what we want and what's in

Jim Kanichirayil:

According to me, nobody really cares. Nobody cares about you.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Nobody cares about your company. Nobody cares about what's

Jim Kanichirayil:

important to you. People are operating in the world from a

Jim Kanichirayil:

position of, I need to advance my own initiatives. So if you as

Jim Kanichirayil:

a seller, and a modern seller as a problem solver, if you really

Jim Kanichirayil:

orient yourself outward to how can you help your broader

Jim Kanichirayil:

customer base, solve the problems that they have, and be

Jim Kanichirayil:

obsessed about the problem that's actually going to advance

Jim Kanichirayil:

everything that you want without you actually overtly advocating

Jim Kanichirayil:

for those things? So there's a reason why I mentioned those

Jim Kanichirayil:

three things. Because if you do those three things, do what's

Jim Kanichirayil:

right for the customer, do what's right for the company, do

Jim Kanichirayil:

what's right, from an ethics perspective, everything else

Jim Kanichirayil:

falls in line. And you know, the fourth thing that I would add,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and this is not something that came from enterprise, if you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

a seller, you need to be oriented in a way where you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

giving two or three times more to the world around you than

Jim Kanichirayil:

what you ask. And that informs how we do follow ups that

Jim Kanichirayil:

informs how how we engage in conversation that informs us on

Jim Kanichirayil:

every interaction that we have, and people are going to get

Jim Kanichirayil:

that, oh, this person is different. Andy, Paul always

Jim Kanichirayil:

talks about how do you rise above the sea of sameness. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

that's how you rise above the sea of sameness. And if you

Jim Kanichirayil:

think about it, how low of a bar has sales set, when being

Jim Kanichirayil:

generous in a general sense, is like the aspirational goal,

Jim Kanichirayil:

right. But that's the thing. It's amazing to me,

Wesleyne Greer:

I think the really amazing part about how we

Wesleyne Greer:

both met is we were just following each other enjoying

Wesleyne Greer:

each other's posts. Because we hold a lot of the same

Wesleyne Greer:

philosophies. We're not trying to tell each other anything,

Wesleyne Greer:

right? We're trying to learn from each other. Because another

Wesleyne Greer:

key thing that you didn't mention about top salespeople

Wesleyne Greer:

leaders that want to develop is that they always are trying to

Wesleyne Greer:

figure out how can I get a little bit better? What can I

Wesleyne Greer:

learn today? What's the one thing that I can tweak? And how

Wesleyne Greer:

can I really take this to the next level? So you talked about

Wesleyne Greer:

all of this amazing things that you did in your early life and

Wesleyne Greer:

early career. I'm curious about these two letters that you have

Wesleyne Greer:

in front of Jim, tell us about that. How did that come to be?

Jim Kanichirayil:

So this is going to circle back to the

Jim Kanichirayil:

generation zero immigrant story. So, you know, I'm not saying

Jim Kanichirayil:

this to be offensive to anybody, but just about every Indian

Jim Kanichirayil:

mother dreams of their children becoming doctors, I can't stand

Jim Kanichirayil:

the sight of blood. So there was no way that I was going to be a

Jim Kanichirayil:

doctor. But I wanted to make sure that my mom would have

Jim Kanichirayil:

something to brag about. So eventually, I decided, well, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

got to do something to get this doctor title in front of my

Jim Kanichirayil:

name. So I went and completed my doctoral research. It was

Jim Kanichirayil:

probably like, six, seven years ago at this point, but it was in

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy. And actually, the research is essentially on

Jim Kanichirayil:

why people join and leave organizations. So again, it was

Jim Kanichirayil:

part of you know, it was employee retention and turnover

Jim Kanichirayil:

within the staffing industry context. And even at that time,

Jim Kanichirayil:

this was several years ago, when when I started that process, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

was always thinking about how can I add value to my hiring

Jim Kanichirayil:

managers that I'm trying to build relationships with? And

Jim Kanichirayil:

while everybody else in staffing is basically smiling and

Jim Kanichirayil:

dialing, trying to pick up the phone and saying, Hey, what

Jim Kanichirayil:

roles do you have open that we can help you fill? My approach

Jim Kanichirayil:

is how do I build this was even before brand identity or any of

Jim Kanichirayil:

that branding stuff was even on my radar? My thought process

Jim Kanichirayil:

was? How do I approach these conversations from a peer

Jim Kanichirayil:

position at a minimum? But ideally, how do I approach these

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations with hiring managers from a position of

Jim Kanichirayil:

authority from the perspective of helping them solve their

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy, and that was just one piece of it. And it was

Jim Kanichirayil:

an intentional piece, it was an expensive, intentional piece,

Jim Kanichirayil:

but you got to invest in yourself to build that sort of

Jim Kanichirayil:

credibility. And this was just one piece of that exercise. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

want to help organizations. This was 10 years ago that I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

thinking about this stuff, maybe 15. I want to help organizations

Jim Kanichirayil:

solve their talent challenges. So how do I do that and approach

Jim Kanichirayil:

it from both a tactical and strategic perspective, which has

Jim Kanichirayil:

massive value implications for the person that I'm dealing

Jim Kanichirayil:

with. And that's how I ended up you know, finishing out the

Jim Kanichirayil:

degree

Wesleyne Greer:

with a good son, I am actually a first generation

Wesleyne Greer:

American. My parents are originally from Jamaica, and in

Wesleyne Greer:

our culture, it's like, you're gonna be a doctor, you're gonna

Wesleyne Greer:

be a lawyer, you're gonna be an engineer, you got to get some

Wesleyne Greer:

kind of advanced degree. And so I majored in chemistry. I'm a

Wesleyne Greer:

chemist, and I was like, Yeah, but this is this is going to be

Wesleyne Greer:

it. I did Dibble and dabble in graduate school bits and pieces

Wesleyne Greer:

here and there. But I was like, Yeah, this is not it. And then

Wesleyne Greer:

when I was like, Oh, I'm wanting to sales. They're like you're

Wesleyne Greer:

doing what? Sales? No, no, no, no, no, you can't you can't do

Wesleyne Greer:

that. That is not an honorable, that's not what you do. You're

Wesleyne Greer:

gonna set your own business. But what Okay, what do you actually

Wesleyne Greer:

selling? I was like, What do you mean, this is a service like it

Wesleyne Greer:

was a foreign concept to them. So I do understand the different

Wesleyne Greer:

ways that parents like immigrant parents, they think and it's

Wesleyne Greer:

because of the hard upbringing there they always had to work so

Wesleyne Greer:

hard for everything, and so they want their children to be safe.

Wesleyne Greer:

it up in the best path. And the second part of what you said is,

Wesleyne Greer:

it really gave me goosebumps and listening to Yes, I wanted to

Wesleyne Greer:

satisfy what my parents wanted for me. But I also was very

Wesleyne Greer:

intentional about what I wanted this degree to do for me. And

Wesleyne Greer:

the fact that you are currently working in a place where you can

Wesleyne Greer:

use all of that, and you bring all of that to work, I think is

Wesleyne Greer:

the full circle of really connecting, hey, this is what my

Wesleyne Greer:

parents wanted. For me, this is what I desired to do. This is

Wesleyne Greer:

what I enjoyed doing, because I can listen to you talk about

Wesleyne Greer:

things in terms of talent, strategy and diversity all day

Wesleyne Greer:

long, because you have so much depth behind you,

Jim Kanichirayil:

me. So I have to be honest about all of that.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And I think that depth has developed from all of these

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations that I have with people all over the place. Like

Jim Kanichirayil:

I'm not really like, this is not all stuff that I've thought up.

Jim Kanichirayil:

This is me constantly asking questions to the point of being

Jim Kanichirayil:

annoying to a lot of people about how do you do this? How do

Jim Kanichirayil:

you do that? Why is that important? And that's actually

Jim Kanichirayil:

going back to something that you mentioned earlier, like my side

Jim Kanichirayil:

of the story of how you and I connected comes routed from one

Jim Kanichirayil:

question, what do I need to be doing to connect with more

Jim Kanichirayil:

people and have more real conversations? So I asked that

Jim Kanichirayil:

question to a whole bunch of people. And Leslie Vaness was

Jim Kanichirayil:

one of the people that we connected with. And we know

Jim Kanichirayil:

Leslie, and she gave me like a list of people that I need to

Jim Kanichirayil:

talk to. So you were on that list. And I think you were like

Jim Kanichirayil:

the second person that I mentioned, it was in no

Jim Kanichirayil:

particular order. But I was like, Okay, well, I gotta get

Jim Kanichirayil:

around these people and find out what they're doing. And that was

Jim Kanichirayil:

like, I'm constantly looking at how can I get, you know, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

somebody in my network, named Adi. And his tagline is, my goal

Jim Kanichirayil:

is to be 1% Better than I was yesterday. And that's really my

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset forever. And when we're thinking about the

Jim Kanichirayil:

intentionality, and all these different areas that I can talk

Jim Kanichirayil:

about, it's a function of just having these conversations with

Jim Kanichirayil:

everybody in my network, I'm always looking for different

Jim Kanichirayil:

ways to kind of understand, you know, there's a great big world

Jim Kanichirayil:

that we're in, and all the interesting things that happen,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and some of that stuff just gets stuck in your head and like

Jim Kanichirayil:

rewires sort of your perspective. And I think the

Jim Kanichirayil:

longer that you can stay in that mode, where you're acting like a

Jim Kanichirayil:

three year old and asking questions about everything, the

Jim Kanichirayil:

more agile you become, regardless of age, in how you

Jim Kanichirayil:

can pick up all sorts of different things. And that for

Jim Kanichirayil:

me, it's pretty selfish, because I don't ever want to be in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

spot where the world is an interesting or people aren't

Jim Kanichirayil:

interesting, because I think it's infinitely interesting. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

people are infinitely interesting. And there's nothing

Jim Kanichirayil:

better than finding out their story like, how did you get from

Jim Kanichirayil:

where you are, to where you where you are now? Or how did

Jim Kanichirayil:

you come from where you were to where you are? Now, that's a

Jim Kanichirayil:

great story. And there's so much you can learn from like those

Jim Kanichirayil:

sorts of conversations.

Wesleyne Greer:

And so even though I tried to give you some

Wesleyne Greer:

accolades and praise, you put them down, and you said, yeah,

Wesleyne Greer:

yeah, but it's really not about me, it's about all these amazing

Wesleyne Greer:

people I've surrounding myself with and how they're helping me

Wesleyne Greer:

grow and develop. And I do think as a leader, that is one of the

Wesleyne Greer:

best things that we can do is really not talk about how

Wesleyne Greer:

amazing we are or how great we are all the amazing accolades

Wesleyne Greer:

and things that we have. But when we talk about the journey,

Wesleyne Greer:

we talk about the people who help them get to where we are.

Wesleyne Greer:

And we talk about how we want to pour back and pull those who are

Wesleyne Greer:

coming behind us up. So in your current position, you have a

Wesleyne Greer:

team of dynamic people share with us one of the challenges

Wesleyne Greer:

that you have had with leading your team in current days.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So I'll kind of frame it in this respect. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

I want to latch on to something that you just mentioned about,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you know, hey, pushing off some of the things that you were

Jim Kanichirayil:

trying to say. And here are the influences behind it. You know,

Jim Kanichirayil:

the reason why I'm like that, I'll blame Lawrence brown again,

Jim Kanichirayil:

because one of the things that he said from a hiring philosophy

Jim Kanichirayil:

perspective was when I'm hiring and developing people, my

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset is I want to hire and develop my replacement. And that

Jim Kanichirayil:

was a formative thought process as a professional. That's the

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset that I have when it comes to hiring and development.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And I think, generally speaking, if you're Brown of any variety,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you have some level of impostor syndrome that exists where

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're like, I'm not sure if I'm good enough at this, that or the

Jim Kanichirayil:

other thing. So there's a bit of that that plays in it. But to

Jim Kanichirayil:

answer your question about my team, are the team that we have

Jim Kanichirayil:

at circa these are phenomenal people. And it's like

Jim Kanichirayil:

supercharged, based off of the mission that we have as an

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization, like how many tech companies are out there that are

Jim Kanichirayil:

high growth that are leading with a diversity first mission

Jim Kanichirayil:

and go to market with like a ridiculous manifesto. Like you

Jim Kanichirayil:

should read that thing. It's crazy. I'd like did a video on

Jim Kanichirayil:

it. So if you have high caliber people that are aligned with a

Jim Kanichirayil:

mission and purpose versus As just high caliber people that

Jim Kanichirayil:

are in pursuit of money, there's a different element to it. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think when you're asking the question about what is the

Jim Kanichirayil:

challenge in tapping into that, I think one of the areas that

Jim Kanichirayil:

gets me heartburn is that I have this team of people that are

Jim Kanichirayil:

around me who I think are supremely talented, but getting

Jim Kanichirayil:

them to see themselves through my eyes is the challenge.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Because the stuff that I do, like I think anybody can do it.

Jim Kanichirayil:

I think anybody can launch a podcast or do a LinkedIn live

Jim Kanichirayil:

show or write, like, you have so much information that's out

Jim Kanichirayil:

there that you could spin this up over a weekend, like I

Jim Kanichirayil:

launched talent strategy 60, over a weekend, because I saw an

Jim Kanichirayil:

opportunity to help the talent strategy community level up

Jim Kanichirayil:

using community intelligence when we're in the middle of or

Jim Kanichirayil:

approaching an economic downturn. So what happens in

Jim Kanichirayil:

that community, when budgets get slashed, you lose people, you

Jim Kanichirayil:

lose resources, you're told to do more with less. And now we

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually have the capability of leveraging all of these great

Jim Kanichirayil:

practitioners around the country to share their best practices

Jim Kanichirayil:

and help actual talent leaders actually do more with less. So I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think all of this stuff anybody can do, but it's getting people

Jim Kanichirayil:

to believe in themselves, that they can do it. That's really

Jim Kanichirayil:

like where my you know, revs are focused, like I spend a lot of

Jim Kanichirayil:

reps and trying to get people to see themselves the way that I

Jim Kanichirayil:

see them. Because I think once you unlock that, it's limitless

Jim Kanichirayil:

on where you can go to the point, like my first

Jim Kanichirayil:

conversations were about, what's your view for yourself? What's

Jim Kanichirayil:

your vision for yourself, what's the better life that you're

Jim Kanichirayil:

seeking in this job and in all of your future jobs, because if

Jim Kanichirayil:

you lock into that, you're going to have that perpetual

Jim Kanichirayil:

accelerator that you can always push, and you don't need

Jim Kanichirayil:

external factors to do it. So it's tapping into that. That's

Jim Kanichirayil:

tricky. And especially as the new person that comes into an

Jim Kanichirayil:

organization and, and I'm a lot, my manager says I like to boil

Jim Kanichirayil:

the ocean at ease. He's freaking right, I think you can take 100

Jim Kanichirayil:

things all at once. And you and I have talked offline about that

Jim Kanichirayil:

sort of stuff, I don't have the wiring in my head that says,

Jim Kanichirayil:

this thing is impossible. I think anything is possible, you

Jim Kanichirayil:

just have to figure out how to make it possible. So rant over,

Wesleyne Greer:

over. It's really a skill to be able to

Wesleyne Greer:

look at someone and really see in them what they can't see in

Wesleyne Greer:

themselves, and helping them to tap into it. Right? Because it's

Wesleyne Greer:

it's one thing to say I see that you're going to be this top

Wesleyne Greer:

salesperson or I see that you're one day going to replace me, but

Wesleyne Greer:

it's more so the challenge that a lot of leaders have or don't

Wesleyne Greer:

even know where to start is giving them that roadmap, like

Wesleyne Greer:

how do I get from just being ordinary to extraordinary,

Wesleyne Greer:

that's my new phrase, I think that's what I'm going to be

Wesleyne Greer:going into:Wesleyne Greer:

extraordinary? What are the things that I need to do? What's

Wesleyne Greer:

the roadmap that I need to get there and really, as leader,

Wesleyne Greer:

that is our responsibility. I talk about sales malpractice, I

Wesleyne Greer:

talk about leadership malpractice, and it is

Wesleyne Greer:

leadership malpractice to see a person struggling or to see

Wesleyne Greer:

somebody with untapped potential and do nothing about it. So as

Wesleyne Greer:

leaders, that is our responsibility, it is our

Wesleyne Greer:

responsibility to have our team shine brighter than we do.

Wesleyne Greer:

Because it's not about us, we must minimize ourselves, and we

Wesleyne Greer:

must elevate the team. Because once your team succeeds, then

Wesleyne Greer:

you succeed. And as a leader, if you don't have that as the

Wesleyne Greer:

forefront in your mind of your strategy, then at some point,

Wesleyne Greer:

you're gonna stumble and you're gonna fall

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, I have no argument with that. And I think

Jim Kanichirayil:

that's probably one of the gaps that I have as a leader is that

Jim Kanichirayil:

I've always been a lead from the front person. And I think in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

in the role that I'm in right now, one of the biggest things

Jim Kanichirayil:

that I've had to adjust or at least get better at is building

Jim Kanichirayil:

the operational discipline, and being more in the background,

Jim Kanichirayil:

and the jury's still out on whether I'll ever build that

Jim Kanichirayil:

operational metrics focus to the level that I needed to be. I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think I'm competent. But you know, you have to look at what

Jim Kanichirayil:

are the things that give you energy? And what are the things

Jim Kanichirayil:

that take energy away from you. And when I think about what

Jim Kanichirayil:

gives me energy, it's being client facing and really in a

Jim Kanichirayil:

team selling environment being client facing where I can

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually influence the sale by instant messaging, instant

Jim Kanichirayil:

messaging off the side, while a rep is actually going through

Jim Kanichirayil:

the selling process where I can influence is auditing phone

Jim Kanichirayil:

calls and emails to make sure that they're buyer centric and

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff like that. That's where I have fun. I have a ton of fun

Jim Kanichirayil:

prospecting. I don't know if I'll ever fall in love with the

Jim Kanichirayil:

operation side of it, but I don't need to like my leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

style is rooted firmly in identify what you're strongest

Jim Kanichirayil:

at and play to that strength versus focusing on building up

Jim Kanichirayil:

your weaknesses be on the level that gets you to competence, I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think you just need to be competent in the areas that

Jim Kanichirayil:

you're weak. I think the expectation that you'd be

Jim Kanichirayil:

excellent at all things is kind of backwards.

Wesleyne Greer:

Absolutely. As a business owner, as a division

Wesleyne Greer:

leader, as a business unit leader, whatever you are, I do

Wesleyne Greer:

think, and I agree with this 100% wholeheartedly, you should

Wesleyne Greer:

know how to do everything within your organization. But you don't

Wesleyne Greer:

have to know how to do it well, but you need to understand it at

Wesleyne Greer:

a baseline level so that you can see if the ship is going off

Wesleyne Greer:

track. So if we are running, who knows reports in our CRM, you

Wesleyne Greer:

should know how to run a report, you don't need to know how to

Wesleyne Greer:

build the report, but you need to know if the data that you're

Wesleyne Greer:

getting doesn't make sense. So you can go back to the person

Wesleyne Greer:

building the report to say, hey, can we make some tweaks here?

Wesleyne Greer:

What inputs did you use, because I'm not getting the right

Wesleyne Greer:

output. And as a leader, so many times we think we got to touch

Wesleyne Greer:

everything, we got to do everything. But that is not your

Wesleyne Greer:

job. Your job is to be the visionary, your job is to be the

Wesleyne Greer:

coach, your job is to be the strategic thinker to lead the

Wesleyne Greer:

organization to lead your team and you let them execute.

Wesleyne Greer:

Because if you touch everything, then what you're doing is you're

Wesleyne Greer:

not developing a bench. There's no bench, all the knowledge is

Wesleyne Greer:

in your brain. And no one else knows how to do anything else.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Yeah, again, no argument there. I think when

Jim Kanichirayil:

I look at myself, the gap that I have, in terms of leadership

Jim Kanichirayil:

style is that there's a lot of stuff that I do instinctively

Jim Kanichirayil:

that it's difficult for me to break it down into step by step

Jim Kanichirayil:

process. So I've inserted myself alongside my team generally, to

Jim Kanichirayil:

show them like, here's what I do, ask me questions about it.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And then we can map it out together for me to like, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

so many things that I don't even pay attention to that just run

Jim Kanichirayil:

on autopilot or instinct, it's hard for me to break it down

Jim Kanichirayil:

into a process. So that's been the other area where I've been

Jim Kanichirayil:

aware of it. And I'm trying to work that back. But honestly,

Jim Kanichirayil:

like, I love being in the game man. The same man, but I love

Jim Kanichirayil:

being in the game, dude. So it's like, it's tough to just like

Jim Kanichirayil:

back out and not be client facing I swear, I think if I was

Jim Kanichirayil:

just pushing metrics, or doing that sort of stuff for all day

Jim Kanichirayil:

long, I would drive myself insane. That is not fun for me.

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, so but that's a different story.

Wesleyne Greer:

That's all different podcast a little

Wesleyne Greer:

different episode. One tip that I can give you and I give this

Wesleyne Greer:

to my clients often is that in order to build this bench, or to

Wesleyne Greer:

extract the things from your brain, like you have to become

Wesleyne Greer:

evergreen, I've literally been recording every single meeting

Wesleyne Greer:

that I've had for two years. Why? I don't know, I'm just

Wesleyne Greer:

recording it. And now I have a library of like, I don't know,

Wesleyne Greer:

way too many things like probably 500 videos, and they're

Wesleyne Greer:

all named right in the description, I say what we've

Wesleyne Greer:

talked about, so I can share that with someone, right? When

Wesleyne Greer:

they come onto the team. I'm like, okay, so you need to do

Wesleyne Greer:

this kind of coaching, you need to work with this, or with a

Wesleyne Greer:

team, it's there. Because one of the challenges that I have is

Wesleyne Greer:

you asked me what I do. And I'm like, I don't know, like, give

Wesleyne Greer:

me a scenario, right? Tell me what's happening. And then I'll

Wesleyne Greer:

respond. And so it's hard for us, because we've been doing

Wesleyne Greer:

this for so long. And there's so many things in our brain, that

Wesleyne Greer:

it's hard to dump that information out. And even like

Wesleyne Greer:

sales leaders, I had one that I was working with recently, and

Wesleyne Greer:

they're like, Well, we're gonna have an in person, and

Wesleyne Greer:

everybody's not gonna be there. I was like, throw on teams, and

Wesleyne Greer:

record yourself, literally just do it. It doesn't matter if

Wesleyne Greer:

you're in the room, they have the little owl thing that hears

Wesleyne Greer:

everybody when they talk, so just do it. And that's how you

Wesleyne Greer:

start developing all your knowledge, your database, this

Wesleyne Greer:

encyclopedia of Dr. Jim. So Dr. Jim, you have had a very, very

Wesleyne Greer:

fulfilling life, el very amazing career, can you share one thing

Wesleyne Greer:

that has impacted the way that you lead?

Jim Kanichirayil:

I mean, aside from the things that Lawrence

Jim Kanichirayil:

has mentioned, that I referenced earlier in the show, like this

Jim Kanichirayil:

stuff doesn't wash it off, you should be hiring with the

Jim Kanichirayil:

mindset of hiring or replacement. Because if you want

Jim Kanichirayil:

to actually grow in your career, that's the mentality that you

Jim Kanichirayil:

should have. Never be afraid of people that are better than you

Jim Kanichirayil:

because that's the only way that you're actually going to get

Jim Kanichirayil:

better. So there's like stuff that we recapped earlier in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

show. But I think the one thing that I don't know where it came

Jim Kanichirayil:

from, but I think the longer that you can operate in the

Jim Kanichirayil:

world with the mindset of a three year old. Why is this the

Jim Kanichirayil:

way it is? Why does it have to be the way it is? What could be

Jim Kanichirayil:

done differently? All of these questions, if you can walk into

Jim Kanichirayil:

just about every interaction with that mindset of

Jim Kanichirayil:

asymmetrical thinking, the better off you're going to be.

Jim Kanichirayil:

And here's why that's important. We spend all of our younger life

Jim Kanichirayil:

in school in secondary education, higher education, and

Jim Kanichirayil:

we're being drilled into us that the object of the exercise is to

Jim Kanichirayil:

find the right answer. And that teaches us to be timid. And I

Jim Kanichirayil:

think that is a fundamental failure of the education system.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So instead of thinking about an obsession Thinking about getting

Jim Kanichirayil:

the right answer we should be thinking about and obsessing

Jim Kanichirayil:

about how can we break stuff, because if we break stuff we

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually learned the most from that experience. And we can

Jim Kanichirayil:

actually be more mentally agile in how we go about the world. So

Jim Kanichirayil:

always be curious. Don't be afraid to break stuff. Don't be

Jim Kanichirayil:

afraid of being wrong, because that's actually where your leaps

Jim Kanichirayil:

of innovation happen versus just getting the right answer.

Jim Kanichirayil:

Getting the right answer teaches you to play it safe. And there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

nothing more boring in life than having played it safe. Don't

Jim Kanichirayil:

play it safe. Thank you for attending my TED talk.

Wesleyne Greer:

I love. So be curious, right? Ask questions

Wesleyne Greer:

when I am mentoring, usually young sellers. And typically

Wesleyne Greer:

it's women, because women as salespeople tend to have, you

Wesleyne Greer:

know, apprehensions if you will. And I tell them, that thing that

Wesleyne Greer:

people told you was so annoying, when you were growing up when

Wesleyne Greer:

you were in school, and all your other jobs is what's going to

Wesleyne Greer:

make you really amazing in sales. And for me, it's the

Wesleyne Greer:

curiosity, I would ask why all the time. Like, that's why I

Wesleyne Greer:

couldn't work in the lab anymore. Because I was like, why

Wesleyne Greer:

am I doing this test? Why do you need this new material? We're

Wesleyne Greer:

like, what, sweetie, can you just be quiet and do the things.

Wesleyne Greer:

So that curiosity is what helps us continue to grow and develop

Wesleyne Greer:

as individual contributors, as leaders as business owners

Wesleyne Greer:

having curiosity and knowing that it is absolutely okay to

Wesleyne Greer:

fail, right? Failure is not bad. It teaches you something and

Wesleyne Greer:

teaches you had to tweak and change, and then move forward.

Wesleyne Greer:

So Dr. Jim, I know that you have an amazing podcast, and there

Wesleyne Greer:

are many things that you're doing out there in the world,

Wesleyne Greer:

tell us what is the one best way for people to get in contact

Wesleyne Greer:

with

Jim Kanichirayil:

you, if you're looking for one best way,

Jim Kanichirayil:

LinkedIn is the way to go. So obviously, if you're connected

Jim Kanichirayil:

with West lien and not connected with me ask for an intro. But

Jim Kanichirayil:

you can find me all over LinkedIn, I post daily, there's

Jim Kanichirayil:

a bunch of content that I push out. So that's the easiest way

Jim Kanichirayil:

to connect with me. And the fastest way to connect, it's my

Jim Kanichirayil:

most active channel.

Wesleyne Greer:

Awesome. And tell us a little bit about your

Wesleyne Greer:

podcast and what it's called. Sure.

Jim Kanichirayil:

So Lawrence, and I, Lawrence Brown, and I run

Jim Kanichirayil:

the cascading leadership podcast, that particular podcast

Jim Kanichirayil:

is in season two. So we're not when we grow up, we want to be

Jim Kanichirayil:

like Wesleyne. So we're not quite there yet. But the podcast

Jim Kanichirayil:

features senior leaders, women, immigrants, people of color, who

Jim Kanichirayil:

have risen to senior leadership, and the intent of the show is to

Jim Kanichirayil:

share all of their learnings so that you can leverage it as a

Jim Kanichirayil:

cliff notes if you're an emerging professional to advance

Jim Kanichirayil:

your career further, faster. So that's cascading leadership. And

Jim Kanichirayil:

then I also recently launched talent strategy 60, which I

Jim Kanichirayil:

referenced earlier in the show. So it's a LinkedIn live show

Jim Kanichirayil:

focused on any and all areas of talent strategy, and helping the

Jim Kanichirayil:

talent strategy community gather best practices, so that they can

Jim Kanichirayil:

advance their internal initiatives faster than what

Jim Kanichirayil:

might be available due to resource constraints.

Wesleyne Greer:

Amazing. So you, you don't just have one job or

Wesleyne Greer:

two jobs, like a typical immigrant, you have many, many

Wesleyne Greer:

jobs. And this is just candy. Still,

Jim Kanichirayil:

you laugh about the typical immigrant

Jim Kanichirayil:

comment. I hear it all the time. I mean, like, I have a pretty

Jim Kanichirayil:

diverse network with a lot of immigrants. And I don't know, a

Jim Kanichirayil:

single one that has less than, like five jobs. I know,

Wesleyne Greer:

I know. And I'm first generation American, and

Wesleyne Greer:

it's still ingrained in my brain. And even my kids are

Wesleyne Greer:

like, yeah, when I grew up, I'm gonna have this business and

Wesleyne Greer:

that business and do this and that. So there's nothing wrong

Wesleyne Greer:

with being ambitious. Dr. Jim, this has been an amazing,

Wesleyne Greer:

amazing conversation you have thoroughly enriched our lives

Wesleyne Greer:

and help us to transform our sales. So I thank you for your

Wesleyne Greer:

time, your talent, your energy, and most of all the knowledge

Wesleyne Greer:

that you gave us today.

Jim Kanichirayil:

No, it was, it was a great fun conversation,

Jim Kanichirayil:

but it's not the first time that you and I have chatted, so I'm

Jim Kanichirayil:

not surprised that it was fun. But thanks for having me on, and

Jim Kanichirayil:

I appreciate the opportunity. Wesleyne

Wesleyne Greer:

Thanks so much again, and that was another

Wesleyne Greer:

episode of the transform sales podcast. Remember each and every

Wesleyne Greer:

day strive to be one person better and transform your sales.

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